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Installing frets... HOW?????
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Author:  PeterF [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Installing frets... HOW?????
I am totally and utterly fed up of banging in frets and having them not seat properly. Its happening on almost every single one. At first I was doing it on a fretboard where I'd cut the slots myself so I assumed there was a problem with the way I cut them. I pulled all the frets and re-fretted it after cutting the slots wider - still didn't work. So I decided to buy a CNC cut fretboard from the same company I bought the fretwire from. Did all the inlays again (a lot :x ) and tried fretting it again... The frets are still rolling over to one side or the other, so one side is seated perfectly, but there's a gap under the other side. It's driving me crazy because there is absolutely nothing to stop them going in!
I've made sure there's nothing in the slot, the board is perfectly radiused, the tangs of the frets do fit in fairly easily, I've clipped more than enough off the ends to clear the bindings and the fretwire seems to be made well... What am I missing?

The worst part is, I've done 2 guitars and it's worked perfectly, even on the one where I cut the slots myself.
Author:  lespaul123 [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
Do you file a slight "V" in slot prior to installing the wire. This can help prevent the fret rolling also prevent some chip out if you need to install new frets later down the road. You can also try pressing them in some have better success with this method.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
That chamfer to the slot will help. You should try the fit on off cuts first, using the same fretwire and wood type. At least that way you have a chance of diagnosing the problem without getting too frustrated. Make sure the slot is deep enough + a little bit of clearance.
Have you enough solidity under the fretboard/neck? Makes a huge difference to the way frets go in if you have a solid backing. I always try to position the fret above the bench leg rather than in the middle of the bench. You want as much mass as possible under the Neck.
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
Over bend the frets and partially hammer in one end first. Then hammer the rest of the fret down in a line toward the other end. Once a corner is started well the rest has to follow.

I started out using an arbor and cauls to seat frets but had the same problem of fret going in crooked. Once I started banging in the ends in first and then partially hammering them in the problem disappeared. I ended up simply dispensing with the use of the arbor and cauls altogether....and just hammering them instead. It became a waste of time to hammer them partially and then have to get out the arbor.

I also use a v-groove at the top of the fret groove.
Author:  johnparchem [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
It sounds as you are able to drive them almost all the way in? One side is fine the other side has a gap. Have you measured the tang length vs the slot depth? Did you radius or bind the fret boards? The radiusing could have left the depth on the ends too shallow which could cause the fret to roll over when it bottomed out. Binding the fret board often leave a bit of glue in the slot on the ends.
Author:  DennisK [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
Try scooting them over or turning them around, so the barbs aren't lined up with the previous one-sided scratches (which makes it tip over again even if you hit it straight).

I had all sorts of fretting trouble on my first several instruments, and the key ended up being the StewMac fret barber (or more time consumingly, just hitting each barb with a dremel wheel). The StewMac fret slotting saw just seems to cut a narrower slot than standard fretwires will fit, when hammering into a bound fingerboard on the neck (i.e. no flexing open the slots). But every fretwire I've tried is different, so I adjust the wire to the slot rather than the other way around.
Author:  Nils [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
I have a very simple technique. I cut all my fretboards using the stewmac table saw blade. I then use a hammer AND the fret press caul. Simply get the fret sitting in the slot, and then hold the caul over the fret, and tap it in place. I find it has pretty much all the benefits of using a hammer and all the benefits of the caul. I pretty much always get perfect results this way, with very little effort. Also, to ensure they stay down, I recommend lightly gluing the ends down. I do this with kind of a two birds/one stone strategy. First I drop a tad of super glue under the slots. Just enough to go about 1/8th of an inch or so. Then I sand the edge of the fingerboard. The dust fills up the slots and the glue holds it in place. This ensures the ends stay down and fills the gap. I usually have to do a couple drops/dust fills per slot. I Also, I highly recommend getting fretwire that came on a roll. The stuff that comes in the tubes from stewmac is not great in my opinion, because you have to bend it. If you get, say dunlop fretwire from a roll, it's usually already perfectly bent for you. Hope that helps!
Author:  Lonnie J Barber [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
I've never had trouble with fretting. The first thing I fretted was a preslotted Bubinga fretboard for a Uke. Watched a video that suggested using a clamp to massage the fret into the slot. It worked great. But I switched to tapping them in with a hammer. The hardest thing I fretted was replacing three frets on an old Martin. I had to really beat them in. I don't know the answer to your problem. The other fellas gave you lots of advice. Good luck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  Rodger Knox [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
Your problem may begin when you radius the frets to match the board.
It's surprisingly easy to get the tang a little out of square, and it takes a lot of pressure seating the fret to get it to seat on both sides.
Starting at one end and working across does help.
Author:  PeterF [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
Thanks for the advice guys. I have chamfered the slots and I have checked that they're deep enough. The fretwire came off a roll so I haven't bent it at all - I'm just using it the way it came which is slightly tighter than the radius of the board. I'm fretting the board off the neck, so there's no problem with support - its flat on a bench. I've tried pressing them with a caul and filing off the barbs and the problem still doesn't go away.
The only thing I can think of is I'm tapping them in with a wooden mallet. Does one have to use a proper fretting hammer to get them in straight?
Author:  Colin North [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
I don't think I would use a wooden mallet, I mean if it's like a carpenter's mallet.
Bit bit and clumsy for fretting I would have thought, not exactly a precision tool.
I fret with fretboard off - I've settled on a smallish deadblow hammer, 12oz - Sealey from ebay, (most people seem to like something smaller) tap the frets ends in (usually the SM hammer), then press, then tap again lightly (deadblow) just to make sure they're seated evenly. but it's a personal thing. http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=35575&p=467688&hilit=+fret+press+caul#p467688
Tried the SM fretting hammer first, then made the caul press, then the deadblow came along, so I suppose the process evolved for me.
Author:  johnparchem [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
Like Colin I use a dead blow hammer. I found a small dead blow hammer with interchangeable heads including a nylon head at a good hardware store. It is a little bigger than the fretting hammer stewmac sells. I can not see using a wood mallet, but I never tried one.
Author:  klooker [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
I use a Stanley 5 oz. dead blow hammer.

Idea came from Todd Stock

http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-57-540-5- ... low+hammer

Kevin Looker
Author:  Lonnie J Barber [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
I use a regular claw hammer. But let me say that I've driven millions of nails and can control a hammer. Not saying I'd suggest others use this method unless you have mucho experience.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  Michael.N. [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
Wooden mallet is a poor tool to use for frets. Too soft, clumsy. Use a small ball pein hammer and polish the face or buy the small Sealey dead blow (usually bright Orange) previously mentioned. Use the soft face, even the Brass face on this is marked by the frets.
Author:  Glen H [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
Yep, ditch the wooden mallet, it would most likely be too soft.
Author:  Goodin [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
Get a fretbender and roll out the wire with a tighter radius than your fretboard, and your problem will be solved.

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/To ... ender.html
Author:  Michael.N. [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
He doesn't need a fret bender. Fretwire in the UK is nearly always sold ready coiled.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
I just did this yesterday so I'll share how I do it. Not saying this is the best way at all, but it works for me.

1. Double check that the slots are the correct size for the fret wire you're using. Make sure the fret slots are clean right up to the binding, I use a little chisel pointed tool I made from a #5 Xacto blade, it also lets me verify that the slot is deep enough all the way across. Blow out the slots with compressed air.
2. Over bend the fret as discussed above. Mine are overbent about 1/16" if I sit it on top of the fretboard.
3. Put a slight V on top of the slot - I use a small diamond needle file and just do enough to break the corners.
4. Get rid of the wooden hammer. I have and can use a steel hammer (another former carpenter here) but wouldn't recommend it. I use a small 4 oz gunsmith's hammer with a nylon head http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/hammers/3-4-nylon-brass-hammer-prod12587.aspx Something similar or a small dead blow would probably also work well - I've had a set of these little hammers for many years so I like using them.
5. Lubricate the slot -I use a toothpick to spread a small amount of the fish glue in the slot. Different glues seem to work just fine for others.
6. Make sure the fret board is backed up solidly. Seat the fret at one end first. Then I seat the other end then tap down the middle (mine are only overbent a small amount) then work the hammer tapping all the way across the fret to be sure it is seated. Just me, probably lots of ways to do it.
7. Clean squeeze-out, if any. If there is more than a little bit you've probably used too much glue. Most of the time I have little or none.
Author:  cphanna [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
My method is practically identical to Steve Smith's. The exception is that I use yellow glue in the slots.
Author:  Goodin [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
Michael.N. wrote:
He doesn't need a fret bender. Fretwire in the UK is nearly always sold ready coiled.


Oh ok, the wire Stew Mac sells is straight 2' lengths.

Good instruction Steve. Lubing the fret slots really helps. I run a thin line of titebond on the bottom of the fret tang just before hammering in.
Author:  bluescreek [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52rsYtL5rxI
I use a small cobblers chasing hammer. The chamfer and glue help for the tang to slide in.
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
I agree, the wooden mallet is probably a big part of the problem. I made a little video a while back of fretting with a combination of Jaws and the Stanley dead blow hammer. I use hide glue in the slot. The frets were over-radiused as mentioned in other posts. This is a straight radius board but leveled along the string runs so probably a little compounding.

I think it's important to have the slot filled beneath the fret and the harder the filler the better. I actually thought hide glue in the slot vs. nothing made a positive difference in tone and so did some other folks that were good players. I don't think we were hearing things but who knows?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY0Dn8EUMG8
Author:  timoM [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
Well I think you have gotten quite a bit of good advice. This pic has about everything I use for fret installation, with the exception of a triangular file to chamfer the slots. I usually do bound fretboards so I chamfer before binding. Aside from the dead blow hammer there are 3 things in the pic I think are important for my procedure, all from Stewmac. The fret slot depth gauge, the bound slot saw and the slot cleaner. I am ritualistic about repeated tasks, I etch a procedure and a protocol in my mind. It really can take your product up a notch to become machine like and do it the same way time after time for repetitive tasks, but keep your head in the game if involves power tools. Once your procedure works of course.

Now there are other ways to do what any of these tools do but sometimes its just easier to spend $40. Good luck.

Tim

P.S. dump the wood mallet
Author:  Tom West [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Installing frets... HOW?????
Peter: Just a couple of points that help me. Take a 3" or so piece of fret wire. At the 2" length file a V in the tang to its full depth. Bend at this point into a hockey stick shape with the V on the outside. Remove the nubs from the tang on the 1" section. Use this to insure slots are deep enough. Board is glued to neck and is dead flat. Fret slots chamfered and cleaned out. Frets are tapped in and then a caul is used to ensure frets are fully seated. While still holding pressure with the caul run thin CA glue along the length of the fret. Clean any excess CA with acetone and single edge razor blade. Since starting to use this method I've found that very little leveling and dressing is required on the frets.
Tom
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